The Non-Linear Journey to Healing: A Talk with Author and Self Advocate Lisa Hurley

Summary

In this conversation, Lisa Hurley and Lola Dada-Olley explore the complexities of healing, emphasizing that it is a non-linear journey filled with ups and downs. They discuss the importance of embracing stillness and practicing gratitude as essential components of emotional well-being.

Takeaways

• Healing is definitely not linear.
• Sometimes healing can feel like it's going up and down.
• Periods of stillness are important in the healing process.
• Trusting stillness is crucial to avoid anxiety about the future.
• Introspection plays a vital role in personal growth.
• Expressing gratitude can enhance emotional well-being.
• There is always something to be grateful for, even in tough times.
• Healing requires patience and self-compassion.
• The journey of healing is unique for everyone.
• Embracing the journey can lead to deeper understanding.

Unapologetically Whole is a podcast for people who have spent years giving themselves away—to caregiving, culture, or career—and are finally ready to reclaim their voice. Hosted by attorney, author, TEDx speaker, and lifelong caregiver Lola Dada‑Olley, the show explores identity, healing, neurodiversity, cultural stigma, and the quiet work of rebuilding yourself after burnout.

Lola draws from her lived experience as an attorney, a mother of two autistic children, the older sister of an autistic, intellectually disabled adult, and the former host of Not Your Mama’s Autism. She also serves as Lead ADA Counsel for a global banking institution and appears with her family in the Vox Media documentary Sensory Overload on Hulu.

Each episode blends storytelling, reflection, and honest conversation to help caregivers and other leaders recognize the lane they’re in, redefine success on their own terms, and reimagine what it means to thrive without disappearing.

Learn more about Lola’s work and her upcoming memoir at loladadaolley.com, and join the newsletter to stay connected to the movement.

Transcript

Lola: 0:04

Welcome to Unapologetically Whole. I'm Lola Dada- Olley, attorney, advocate, storyteller, and lifetime caregiver. This is a space for anyone navigating identity, caregiving, leadership, or the quiet work of becoming. Here, we tell the truth, the beautiful parts, the complicated parts, and the parts we're still learning how to name. Some episodes are intimate reflections. Others are conversations with people whose stories expand our understanding of resilience and wholeness. No matter the format, the heart of this show is the same. To remind you that your story matters, your voice matters, and you are allowed to be whole without apology. Let's begin. Welcome to the very first inaugural episode of the Unapologetically Whole podcast. It's a rebrand from the Not Your Mama's Autism podcast, a podcast that I birthed five years ago, and I realize now that it's time to evolve. And while autism advocate advocacy will definitely be part of a very important part of this rebrand, I want to now focus on wholeness, on being whole and the importance of not having one attribute of yourself take over the rest of you. And how do we best embrace all of us, all of ourselves, really, in different ways, so that we can become the best version of ourselves overall, because none of us is just one thing. So this happens to be the second part of an amazing conversation. I've already started on the other side of the of the podcast universe, ending our very last episode of Not Your Mama's Autism with just a powerful human being, Lisa Hurley, author, renaissance woman, platform launcher. I think she'd be a wonderful first guest as we kind of walk into wholeness, being whole and what it means to her. And how sometimes parts of ourselves, obviously, they're the good parts, they're the bad parts, are the parts we may want to improve, and sometimes other parts maybe take over other parts. And um, I call it that negative inner voice sometimes, and I just like to have a wonderful conversation with Lisa about how she does all the things that she does and getting rid of how she more often than not, I assume, given all the rich fruit she's produced, how more often than not she's chosen to push through fear when it rears its ugly head. So, Lisa, thank you for meeting with me again today.

Speaker 5: 3:30

Lola, thank you. Thank you for having me. And it is such an honor to both end the Not Your Mama's Autism podcast and then be the inaugural guest for this one. And so thank you for having me, not once, but twice. I definitely appreciate that. And congratulations on this new evolution, this new venture.

Speaker 3: 3:54

Thank you.

Lola: 3:55

Thank you. Thank you. And we've talked, I mean, we first met, for those that don't know the background, we first met through Luvvie Ajayi's amazing book academy. And then we were both just authors in our mind's eye, just going through this process. And Lisa has since published her amazing work, and I emphasize it's clearly a book, a work book, but for you and for those who read it, I think I said on the last episode it felt like a warm hug. It felt like a hug. And it felt like a little bit of tough love in there too. And I'm still going through the workbook itself because I think as we all kind of end this year, because while as this is being taped, it's in November, but this will likely launch in January. But it's a good time with a book like this that's a workbook to also work through as the new year comes areas of yourself that you'd like to maybe get to know more and maybe grow, and maybe areas you'd like to maybe not grow so much. With so with that of you, a space to exhale, what made you think through of this piece of work, your first book, to be a workbook? It's actually a multiple labels almost. It's yes, a workbook's part of it. But how what made you come to this conclusion to write your book in this way?

Speaker 5: 5:25

So I am a believer that faith without works is dead. And I have read many books where even good books, right? But where you feel at the end or while you're even in the midst of reading it, okay, what do I do now? What do I do now? How do I apply this? And so on. And that's why I decided to include essentially a workbook section at the end of every chapter. So every chapter has um a breath work exercise, journaling prompts, medi a full meditation, all of the things, reminders for you to congratulate yourself on things you've done well, right? Very important, very important. And it's because you have you have to actually do the work. The theory is important, but it's not enough. You have to do like biology, which I wasn't good at, but you have to do the theory and the practical because you have to be able to apply what you're learning. And I wanted to make it easy for people to do that and to hold their hands. I want them to feel like I was with them on their journey as they were going through the book, reading it and so on. I wanted them to feel held rather than abandoned. And so I'm so happy that you said it, you know, you say it feels like a hug because that's what I wanted people to feel held and taken care of and cared about and guided and protected and hopefully inspired as well.

Lola: 6:52

One of my favorite quotes actually is from Jane Fonda, and I'm going to paraphrase it because now that I've said her name and the quote, it will not, the exact quote will not come to my head.

Speaker 5: 7:03

Yeah, that's life.

Lola: 7:04

Yeah, that's yeah, but the overall paraphrase is the goal is not to be perfect, it's to be whole. And you mentioned that really triggered in my ear when you said congratulating yourself along the way. Was that something you had to learn over time, or is that something you just knew to do?

Speaker 5: 7:24

Oh, it's something I had to learn over time because I grew up in a very traditional Caribbean West Indian household. And I think even though you're from a different culture, there are similarities between the cultures, right? In that although my my parents weren't necessarily like this, but the the c the the society at large, right? If you get an uh a a B, it's okay, why didn't you get an A?

Speaker 3: 7:49

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5: 7:50

If you get an A, why didn't you get an A plus? You know, if you come second in class, well you're you're good enough to come first. So you can't even celebrate that you came second out of, I don't know, 30, 60 people.

Speaker 3: 8:02

Yeah.

Speaker 5: 8:03

And there was also the approach of wanting to both elevate us, elevate children, as well as keep us humble.

Speaker 2: 8:13

Yep, absolutely. I could relate.

Speaker 5: 8:16

Exactly. And so I did not grow up, I would accomplish things without even realizing that I had accomplished them. And it still lingers to this date, something that that's why I always say it's called a practice, not a perfect. You have to keep working at it, right? And so the other day I was talking to someone, and we were talking about accomplishments, and I said, Well, you know, I just have like the regular ones, like degrees. And they're like, Lisa, because where where I am from, right, in the context in which I grew up, that is absolutely not considered special. That's just my context. I can only be with my reality. I'm not saying that they are not special and they are not important.

Lola: 8:53

I understand. I'm Nigerian, I'm Nigerian American. I get it. Very similar. Very similar.

Speaker 5: 8:59

And so that's what I mean, like it lingers to this day. And they have to remind me, no, it is an accomplishment to get a degree. An associate's, a bachelor's, a master's, a PhD, a postdoc, whatever. All of them are accomplishments. But it takes work to remember that. And so gradually I started reminding myself more and more. But because the good thing about being able to write this book at the age and stage of life that I'm at is that I have a bit of life experience. I have some life, some wisdom that I've acquired, right? And so realizing that it had been difficult for me to remember to congratulate myself, knowing that there are people in my circle who have the same struggle, I thought, let me include this to remind people at the end of every chapter, hey, you've done something good today. You've done something good this week, this year. What have you done? Congratulate yourself about it. And it doesn't even necessarily have to be something like, you know, a degree, or in your case, let's say publishing your book and so on. It doesn't have to be necessarily anything big or public. It can be, let's say, if you were struggling with self-care, right? That you decided to, one day you decided to prioritize your self-care, take care of yourself properly, get some decent rest, stay hydrated, all those little things. You can be, you know what? I drank my eight glasses of water today. I'm proud of myself. It can be something like that too.

Lola: 10:29

Glad you you elaborated on that because really and truly, that has taken me quite a long time to do as well. And I think is just as important as reaching the finish line is kind of a little bit of a pat on the back along the way. Because life is a marathon.

Lisa Hurley: 10:46

Life is a marathon, you know, and and the the last time we spoke um afterwards, you know, you you very kindly shared your book cover with me, which I absolutely love. It's so so gorgeously designed. It's it's a work of art. You know, I I think I might have to um beg you for a high-res um you know, file so I can blow it up into a poster. But it's it's so beautiful. And I was like, huh, I wonder if she if Lola congratulated herself for completing the book, for doing the edit. A book is a whole series of mini-projects, right? For taking the idea for from conception. Sorry, I don't know. Can you were you able to hear my reminder there? I hope not.

Lola: 11:33

Yeah, I can't I can't hear the reminder. It's okay. Life, life, life.

Lisa Hurley: 11:38

That that is that is one of the things I have to do. Um, give myself reminders because otherwise I literally will not remember. I will get this is this is this is um maybe going back to the previous podcast, but I'll get so narrow focused. Yeah, tunnel vision. Uh yeah, tunnel vision, and then I I forget to eat. So that's why I'm saying even something like remembering to drink your water is an accomplishment. That's what I mean. For me, remembering to eat my lunch sometimes is an accomplishment.

Lola: 12:10

You know, it's a good point. It's another great point you make. It really is, and I talk, and I'm starting to talk about this in corporate spaces, like even at my job, too. I've had the opportune, the real privilege of speaking before audiences just internally at my place of employment to remind people that success really is tailored to your own life circumstances.

Lisa Hurley: 12:30

Yeah, yeah.

Lola: 12:31

Right? And that's part of being whole too, is realizing what lane you're in. I call it the three R's recognizing your lane, redefining success now on your own terms. Yes, yes. And then reimagining what it means to thrive. It needs to be unique within your own life circumstances. And going back, I see so much complimentary themes in your now published book and my soon-to-be published book because along the way to becoming whole, there is this time for radical introspection, you know? It's and that part of that really exhaling has to be part of that.

Lisa Hurley: 13:13

Yeah.

Lola: 13:14

Sitting down and taking it in the good, the bad, the trauma, the triumph. And then how do you continue to work through it? Things will continue to happen. Life will continue to life, people will continue to people. But how do you best cope along the way and still find the beauty and joy in all of it? And I think as I work through your workbook, see what I did there?

Lisa Hurley: 13:40

Mm-hmm.

Lola: 13:42

I see a lot of ways that it's the simple rhythms of rest and reminding yourself that you're human and giving yourself grace along the way as you continue to have that audacity to dream and climb higher. It's all part of the process.

Lisa Hurley: 14:06

It's all part of it, and and that is as it should be. Life is definitely not linear. We tend to think of it as linear because you know we count our age and we step up and and so on. But life is indeed not linear. As life lifes, it lifes, you know, and sometimes it's going up, sometimes it's going down. It can feel triumphant one moment, difficult the next. Uh you can have periods where things are just still, right? Hopefully, you're healed enough to trust that stillness and not keep looking around the corner for quote unquote the next shoe to drop. But it is it is a journey, and I think introspection, like you mentioned, is very, very important. And expressing gratitude. I truly believe there is always something to be grateful for. And that's not to say that the difficult things aren't happening, right? Not to say that there are not scheduling conflicts or like our 75 scheduling conflicts. Right. And that we keep we keep doing it to each other. One minute it's me, one minute it's you, and and you know, but the grace we show each other and that we've shown each other is so important. But you know what? The scheduling conflicts, conflicts mean that you would not necessarily have them if you didn't have your beautiful um career and your beautiful family. They are a blessing. And same for me. I would not have them if I didn't have, you know, my career, my book that I'm constantly marketing and so on and so forth. Yeah. It's they're blessings. Um, you know, I'm blessed to have a family. I'm blessed to have been able to publish my book. I'm blessed to be in, generally speaking, in relatively good health, and so on. And those are blessings. Now, do I have days where the health feels like it's you know kicking my behind? Absolutely. Yeah, right? But I'm here. I'm here. Every day, you know, above ground is a blessing. Because because that means there's hope, there's another opportunity, there's a chance to have a better day, uh, to do more, to um rest more, if that's what you that what you want to do, and to get in alignment with yourself. Get because I think that's an important part of wholeness is being in alignment with you. If you are at at odds with yourself, you can't actually happily move forward through life. Because you're you're inwardly at war. So getting doing that introspection and getting at peace with who you are.

Lola: 16:47

I think people are discovering that with the whole what I mean, social media, what it what it's unlocked. I mean the negative sides of that, that you find out that people have worked so much on the outside and have not worked as much on the inside, and then the cracks start to show.

Lisa Hurley: 17:03

Mm-hmm.

Lola: 17:04

Mm-hmm. And it's really hard work. And that's another thing. It's it's not easy. But the results, the level of generational impact that's possible, and not just for those of us who have our children, but just the world around you that you positively affect for the work you do on yourself, just what I'm beginning to see in my own healing journey, the decisions I'm making, not based out of trauma, but more as a trauma-informed person, as opposed to just reacting to the trauma. I can see around me how it's affecting positively my fellow employees at work, who clearly are not my kids, they're colleagues at work, you know, things like that. It's the world we interact with and how it can truly help others.

Lisa Hurley: 17:54

Yeah. I mean, if you, if you look, everybody, everybody, but a lot of people, especially nowadays where there's social media and there's this, I think, pressure on especially children and young adults to go viral and become famous and all of that, which I I I understand and I get it. At the same time, everybody cannot be, you know, Rihanna or whoever, you know, Megan the Stallion or whoever.

Lola: 18:19

But even Rihanna can't be Rihanna, like the one the image we think of as Rihanna all the time. She's gonna be very vulnerable some days, human. And same with Megan the Stallion. We only know one verse back to the unapologetically whole. We only know one aspect.

Lisa Hurley: 18:35

One aspect, one aspect. When Rihanna is home, I don't know, maybe rescue her children and hanging out with the family and you know, I don't know, going to a picnic or whatever. We don't know that, right? But a lot of people just want that ex that glossy exterior, yeah, or want to be one of those people. But there's a lot to be said for operating within your sphere of influence. And everybody's different. And sometimes your sphere of influence could just be your immediate family, or it could be a little bit, it could be a little bit wider, your colleagues and so on. But if you can bring more light and love and posity, be a bearer of light in as many contexts as possible. That could be your work. You don't know what they're saying about you. Up in up in heaven, they might be like, Well, you know, I don't know, the these stars are wonderful, but this, oh my gosh, Loa is down there. Look at her doing the thing with her family, you know, and all all this stuff. And she's, you know, she's she's such an angel with them. I wonder if she knows that she's an angel. You don't know what they're saying about you, right?

Lola: 19:39

It goes back to recognizing your lane. And part of recognizing your lane is that self awareness. Back to your book, SpaceX Hale. It helps for those who might struggle with self awareness. From what I've read so far in your book, it really helps. Like these exercises of Just picking out certain words because it then makes you wonder why did I choose this word to describe X or Y or Z?

Lisa Hurley: 20:08

Yes, yes.

Lola: 20:09

And that self, I used to tell people, and I think I might might have even mentioned this in the last episode. If I didn't mention it, I definitely thought it. But self-awareness is a spiritual gift. And it's all about how you wield it too. Because once you know and understand yourself, the power that's unlocked cannot even fully be described in words, to be honest. It helps you to say no to the proper venues, help you to say yes to the proper venues and opportunities. It's not necessarily about seeking these traditional notions of success. It's about becoming significant in the rooms you do find yourself in.

Lisa Hurley: 20:50

Yes.

Lola: 20:50

I think now in my big age of 45, I'm realizing that it's the importance of the rooms I find myself in and how I can bring light to those rooms in my own way. It might not look like somebody else's way. I remember when I started speaking in front of audiences, people say, Wow, like you speak so soft and kind. And a lot of speakers are big and bold and elevate their voices. And that's not really my style. It's not me. It's not me. And the thing is, they booked you.

Lisa Hurley: 21:27

They didn't book these other people. They booked you. You know? Yes. I'm so happy that you realized and your that your immediate response was, well, that's nice, but this is me. This is me. This is my style. This is how I do things, and that you're good with that.

Lola: 21:42

But that took time, right? Because being in, especially becoming a lawyer, there are a lot of images of what a lawyer is supposed to look like and act like. But a TV doesn't help and media images don't help. But I I remember somebody early on in my career said, You're so kind, you're so compassionate, you're so human. Why are you a lawyer? And I said, Yikes. I said, yikes! First of all, why do you think all lawyers are not human or kind or obviously, and then obviously we're all fighting against other people's preconceived notions of what but it really gave me, I remember being early out of my career. I said, wow. So people see me and think she can't be a lawyer because of XYZ. And not even to mention, if I had a dollar for every time somebody assumed I wasn't a lawyer just because I'm a black woman, that's a whole nother show. That's a whole nother episode.

Lisa Hurley: 22:43

That's a whole other episode. That's where I thought you were going. I didn't know.

Lola: 22:46

Yes, it was the makeup of who I am intrinsically. It's like, okay, I'm kind, I'm dunker. That's interesting. And then another time as a lawyer, which I thought was so funny, I was strong and bold and I was negotiating on behalf of a client. This was several employers ago now. And my client, who happens to be a white woman, said, and I quote, that's what I'm talking about, south side of Chicago. First of all, I grew up in the Chicago area. I grew up in a very white suburb. I did not grow up in the quote, south side of Chicago. So the fact you made all these assumptions because you saw a more assertive version of me that I brought out, I was like, hmm, very interesting. Racism never sleeps. Exactly. And it reminds me of those regular check-ins back to the tiny book, like those types of exercises. If you don't regularly check back in with you, and in my case, with you, with me and my creator, it's very easy to take other people's views of you, internalize it, and if you're not careful, it can become a part of you. Because that's how powerful we are in each other's lives. We can influence each other for both good and bad.

Lisa Hurley: 24:09

Yeah. We can and we do, you know, getting to the point where you are not swayed by peer pressure, because people think of peer pressure as I think something that happens, you know, in high school or something, maybe at college or whatever. Peer pressure happens all your life. And it happens with all of us, even and now that there's social media, there's that sort of, I don't know, I call it like secondhand peer pressure where like everybody's looking at everybody else's life or what they assume and presume to be that person's life, making comparisons and trying to force everyone to be similar and to have the strength of will to say no, this is who I am. Right. Uh, this is how I speak, this is how I wear my hair, this is how I interface with clients, this is how I draw boundaries around myself and my family. This is how I comport myself even when no one is watching into integrity. That takes significant strength of will and and and time and experience for a lot for for people for whom that does not come naturally, it takes work. And again, that's why I included and there's a whole chapter about values, because values I think really underpin what you're talking about, which which is can you be who you are consistently, no matter what anyone else says, right? So values help you do that. Also, if you value, some people value work, right? Not a bad value to have, but if they value work to the expense of all else, then they're probably not going to spend as much time, maybe that as they imagine that they would with their family, for example, right? Yeah, you can't say, or you can use myself as an example and call myself out. Oh, you know, I'm about health and fitness. I'm watching, I'm watching the yoga on my couch.

Lola: 26:10

You're admiring it. You're admiring its beauty.

Lisa Hurley: 26:13

I'm doing yoga by osmosis, right? I don't know about osmosis yoga, you know. So, but but you understand what I mean. I mean, that's kind of a funny example. But you understand, right? And I'm like, you know what? Let me call myself out here. So, because I'm definitely, I just want to say, I wrote the book for me as well. It is not simply, oh, here you go, you know, I am a guru sitting on top of a mountain and I'm perfect. That is not where I'm coming from at all. I know some things have experienced some things I have some wisdom to share. Again, it's a practice, not a perfect. So I am also still doing the work. I also still have aspects of my personality or character that maybe I'm like, huh, could you do better in this case? You know, are you good? Are you good? Are you okay with how you are? Yes, I am. Could you do better in these situations? Yes, I could. That's okay. And then you do the work.

Lola: 27:07

So where can people find you?

Lisa Hurley: 27:10

Okay, so um my book's website is spaced to exhalebook.com. And so everything is there, and it's um published by Wiley, and so it's available everywhere on Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Goodreads, Bookshop, Books a Million, you name it, you name it, it's there. And I am just, I'm so pleased that the book is out. I am so happy with the reactions that people have had to it thus far, including yours, thank you. And, you know, I feel like I was given an assignment and I fulfilled the assignment. So, in terms of feeling, you know, congratulating myself, I feel proud of myself for having fulfilled the assignment that I was given.

Lola: 27:55

Yeah, so powerful.

Lisa Hurley: 27:57

Thank you.

Lola: 27:58

May we all complete our assignments in this in this life of ours. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Lisa Hurley: 28:06

Thank you again for another amazing conversation. You too. Stay blessed, my love. Stay blessed. You too. Big hugs, keep shining. Hugs, you too.

Lola: 28:18

Thank you for joining me on Unapologetically whole. My hope is that something you heard today offered you some space to breathe, reflect, and feel seen. If this episode resonated with you, please take a moment to rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. It helps this community grow. And if you want to stay connected, visit loladadaali.com, l-ol e y dot com to sign up for my monthly newsletter, purchase my upcoming book, Unapologetically Whole, or learn how to bring me to your next event as a speaker. Until next time, I'm Lola Dada Ali, and this is Unapologetically Whole.